Lessons in The Art of Brutal Death Metal: Insightful Discussion with Lille Gruber of Defeated Sanity
February 24th, 2022
(The entire audio portion and YouTube version, can be found at the bottom of the page)
Metalchondria: This is Jason of Metalchondria, here with Lille Gruber. (Checking with Lille on proper pronunciation of his first name) Did I get that right?
Lille Gruber: Yeah!
I wanted to make sure I get that right. Thank you again for your time, and this has been, for a Thursday night, you know--with Covid and everything, the pandemic, people are coming to shows. And, I hope this continues, and doesn't stay like a trend. Tell me your thoughts about the first night, and just what it's like playing after 2 years?
It was, like that aspect, wasn't even that--I don't know, I didn't feel much about that. It was awesome, of course. I was totally happy to finally get back on stage, but I was more worried about the band. It's like, brand-new, brand-new guitar player (Justin Sakogawa), and brand-new set. And, the new set is really tricky, we had only 2 rehearsals together. So, it was a little bumpy, but I totally enjoyed it. And especially yeah, with this great turnout, the great support here, the merch table. Yeah, I love being back, and even seeing the other bands and shit. Grand return!
Yeah, we miss it. And I noticed, the past few years, that there hasn't been a main guitar player. You have Justin and Dan (Thorton) on the side, has that just been coincidence? Or is that how you like to do things, in terms of members, and session members?
No. What we want to find, is a full band member.
Permanent.
Yeah. It's just, it'll just be so much tighter, and just more unified entity, you know? Yeah, working with session musicians for this stuff, is very, very harsh. Like, I feel we're in that stage right now, because we haven't played with Justin a lot. And I feel, with Christian (Kuhn), the old guitar player, we played for about 14 years! So, you can feel that, you know? You can feel that in the music, and we hope that Justin is just going to be the guy, you know? Yeah, the thing with Dan, is over. I think he's (Justin) doing a great job; we hope we can keep, yeah. We'll probably get along great and everything.
So, tell me-I found out shockingly, you were in the band, at 11, 12 years old, if I'm told correctly?
Yeah.
That's very unusual, you know? That's something kids and children of any genre, is not around for. Tell me, how did you get started into Brutal music, even at an early age? Did you see things differently? Were you just brought to the information different? Tell me about your experiences, very early with very Brutal music?
Defeated Sanity performing at Brick by Brick, the first day of their US tour.
Well, "very" Brutal music, I guess the first "very" Brutal experience was Slayer, for me. Because, all the other stuff was even around. I literally, when I was six years old, I started with Metallica, Megadeth, Testament, early Thrash. So, I didn't know any Death Metal. And then, Slayer came, and that was the most brutal thing I've ever heard. I've been a fan of all these bands, but Slayer, just the evil, fucking merciless sound, just impressed me the most, probably. I know, a few years later, came Death, Obituary, other old-school Death Metal bands, and then. I don't know, the next step I guess, would be Cannibal Corpse, and "Suffo" (Suffocation), and all that stuff. So, yeah, I really enjoy how I kind of always built up, and I kind of enjoyed having lived in that time, been a Metalhead in a time where there was no blast beats. Actually, there was no Death Metal, you know? It was, fun for me. It was a built up.
And I found out, that you actually write a lot of the material in Defeated Sanity. Not just the drums, but the guitars. Do you write most of the music in the band?
Yeah, I do.
Wow! What is that like, the contrast between--why not just do guitar? Are you more comfortable as a drummer? Or you just play guitar, just for the parts to write? But, to perform, it's the drums? Tell me the contrast between both instruments that you do?
Umm, I don't know how it came, I just started playing both of these instruments, at a very early age. I don't know, I was just always interested in the whole, the interplay of these two instruments, and of course, the bass and the vocals. These four instruments basically--I don't know why I can't find a drummer instead, I don't know. Sometimes, I also think it would be easier, you know? I'm writing stuff, and if I could find someone that, I don't know, satisfies me, as a drummer. Then, it would be so much easier to, to complete a song, you know? And, just jam; you have an idea, and you can just throw it to a drummer, and, I don't know. Right now, I'm writing everything out first. The song is completed, and then I go into the rehearsal room, with the backing track, without the guitars or just play along to the guitar profile. Yeah, it feels a little bit, I guess, lonely or something. But yeah, I don't know, I can't--I think my style as a drummer, is just so distinct. At this point, it's hard to find a replacement that checks all the boxes.
The Sanguinary Impetus (Willowtip Records)
And, speaking about drumming, you know as Metalheads, we--it's like a language. When we hear things over time, things become more and more clear, about what you're listening to. In the past three years maybe, drumming has opened my eyes more to drumming, than I ever had in my life. Now, I pay attention to the drums more, than other things. So, I'm trying to learn more about like, theory, in terms of drumming will accent guitar parts and vocals, together. Tell me about, you said your distinct style. How would you describe your drumming style?
That's hard to say. I'm just taking a lot from not Metal drummers, and not Metal music--I feel I just use a lot of non-typical elements, whereas most people, especially nowadays, really go for the crazy speed, with the double-bass. I don't even work on that. I know--recently I was faced with a situation. For example, I got offered a job to do a session, for like a bigger band. And I was like, "I can't do that. I can't do that double-bass." The clean, you know--because I don't work on that, so I work on Funky, Fusion, Jazzy stuff, or Proggy ideas. I just work on other stuff than the other people.
When you say other drummers, aside Metal, anyone in particular that stand out for you? That you hone, or recognize? Who are those drummers that you were mentioning?
It's a ton. I always say my favorite drummer is Tony Williams. Tony Williams, old jazz guy. All these old jazz guy, or any jazz guy that's really good what they're doing. It's always an influence, I like that draft. I don't know, you name it, Dennis Chambers, Dave Weckl, or Billy Cobham. Nowadays, I like the newest drummer for Animals as Leaders, Matt Garstka, very good drummer. Of course, Sean Reinert, RIP. But, that's the one that brought this kind of stuff into Death Metal first, I guess. Yeah, that's the stuff that kind of inspires me a lot, you know?
Do you have thoughts--have you heard Ulcerate before?
Yeah.
Have you heard their drummer Jamie St. Merat (in detail)?
Sure, yeah.
For my personal opinion, I think that's probably as good as it gets. The stuff that he does, I never heard anyone do before. At least, as a drummer to a drummer, can you describe, that kind of style? When you hear a drummer, what do you pay attention, and what do you believe "matters", when you hear this kind of drumming, this next level of drumming?
Yeah. With him, he kind of checks different boxes, than I do, so he's doing a little bit of the, I guess the grooves, that are more-the groovy stuff, you know? But I think he's more professional, with the really fast blast beat stuff, and double-bass stuff. So, I don't know, he's kind of similar, in a way, to me? He's going more for the traditional drumming than what I go for, you know? He has some of the (hums and emulates Jamie's drumming)--
Yeah, he does certain things with the snare, and the hi-hat.
Dynamics, you know? Most Metal people don't even look into.
Disposal of the Dead (Willowtip Records)
So, I was fascinated with the Disposal of the Dead/Dharmata record. Not many bands will do a two EP, completely different music styles together. And, it's maybe a good thing, because a lot of people try that, and you know over time, the height of it would wear down. Everyone would do it. So, it's great it's a unique thing, I never really heard a band do that before.
I was totally aware that's unique, you know? When we came up with the idea, I was really happy. I don't know, that we had that idea. Because I agree, it's not been done before, and as I told you, I'm very inspired, by a broad variety of musicians, on music. We are all, all of us. Jacob also listens to all kinds of different music. I don't know, so one thing that we really like, is the old late 80s, early 90s Prog bands, you know? Fusion bands, like Spastic Ink, Watchtower, of course Cynic and Death, Atrocity.
You ever hear of Spiral Architect? Similar, that's what I think of initially.
Yeah, people always how do you say, always, how do you call it?
Recommend?
No, no. They always "compare", Dharmata, to that. Yeah, so we're listening to that a lot. We decided at one point, "Hey, let's do something like that." Because, it's still technical, like Defeated, but let's just do something crazy and basically split our style in two. So, the other side, is completely cave man-ish, just brutal and ultra-fast, grindy, you know? For example, no solos there, you know? And then the other is, Death/Watchtower type, inspired stuff.
Dharmata (Willowtip Records)
Max Phelps sounds a lot like Chuck (Schuldiner) at times, doesn't he? (smiles)
Yeah, sure!
In a compliment, in a good way.
Yeah, I saw him with Death to All, and I was blown away. So, that's how I was choosing it, you know?
I went to the very first show they did, they played in San Francisco. We drove for that, and Gorguts opened. That was one of the greatest sets, I've ever seen in my life.
Luc Lemay of Gorguts and I, after the first Death To All 2012 show at The Regency Ballroom in San Francisco 06/23/12
Yeah, that sounds right.
It was great! Talking about the contrast and the two EPs, and my other question with it: It's hard to make really dynamic Brutal music.
Oh yeah.
So, what are the keys? It can't just be, you know, the drums have to do a certain part, and the guitars do something different. What is it like in your head, your heart, and just in general, knowing what you want to do for yourself, to make sure that you just stay as interested, as you want the band to? How hard is it to make quality, memorable, Brutal music?
It's very hard. It's, I don't know, I don't even go by these things anymore. "Let's make a part like this, make it write a Slam", you know? For me, it's almost like also theoretical ideas, and original, musical concepts, you know? For example, certain interesting syncopation, that I'm thinking of, "Okay, that's gonna make a great riff." It's really about musical ideas, where I think other bands just form and say, "Okay, we just go to write this Slam riff here." Or, I don't know, maybe the dissonate bands go like, "Oh let's write this chord"--
Inverted, yeah.
Because, everybody's doing it. And I don't think in that kind of, you know?
There's a group of bands--I talked with Eric (Hersemann) of Gigan a few years ago, and mentioned a certain group of bands. And he described them as, "off the beaten path." Like different, traveled a different road. Augury, Lykathea Aflame, Anata, Beyond Creation, maudiln of the Well, those kind of, you know--Gorguts. That kind of style, this very different--there's so much colour and different textures within songwriting parts. And I mention, in The Sanguinary Impetus, the newest record, there's parts where the guitar would do a certain like, certain staccato, (mimics the sound), and the drums would match it with this upbeat, just very different textures.
Counterpoint, if you want. So, Classical music, is a backdoor for us, you know?
About that kind of style, with those bands, and I would consider your drumming style, and the style overall to be that kind of different--what do you personally see either in your, with colours you see, or your ideas. How do you start writing? I guess, what do you do-what is the actual writing process, how does it come up? You just said it, it's not just "Let's make a Slam riff!" I agree, it's not like that, so what it is actually like, theoretically, being able to create this. What do you look at, or think about?
I don't know. It's just, just a vision of an arrangement, sometimes it goes along with the vocal pattern, or something. Just a vision, and it’s always kind of constructed on the guitar, or I'm fucking around on the guitar, and then, "Oh, man! That was weird." And it was like, I really just looking for outstanding ideas, you know? And then, I don't know, then you've got a great riff for me, everything starts with the great riff, you know? Sometimes I don't even care like, if I see a great band that has great riffs, the drumming doesn't even have to be great. For me, everything starts with the riff. I don't know, just propelled for example, (mimics palm-muted chord riffs played like a 90s Death Metal breakdown, with other guitar aspects), it's like, sometimes it's just a certain idea, you know? So, it's just the sound, was the idea there. I don't know.
Those are the questions I really like to dig down, dig deep, and really pinpoint of those matters. So, with the ideas you say you mainly write, with Josh (Welshman, vocalist) and Jacob (Schmidt, bassist). What do they do, in terms of the writing parts? Do they contribute tempo arrangements, tempo-based riffs, or actual riffs? What do they help contribute with you, and what are their musical writing roles?
Okay, with Josh, we're writing the lyrics for the last album, together. Pretty much 50-50. So, in there, there will be a few vocal patterns that Josh comes up with, where he's like, "Okay, that could line up with this lyric." Okay yeah, so I'm basically, yeah. That's where he gets into the vocal patterns. And then, with Jacob, most of the time he's supplying riffs, you know? He has ideas, and he sends them to me. And then, I'm building a song out of them, or using them in a song.
With Justin, hopefully future writing coming up, you'll have another guitar player, a really great one, by the way. Doing double-duty every night, that needs to be recognized!
Yep, we're not there yet. (laughs)
A few other questions, and again thank you for your time. We're hoping that the shows will be like this, it'll stay this strong with fans.
I mean, yeah. This was a Thursday, I'm hoping it's gonna stay great, you know?
As long as you've been around, all the bands, and you started at such an early age, I'm hoping it's not a trend, not like just a bump. For the love for all of this, and what we do, what do you feel venues, and fans in general, what's a good way to make sure can constantly go--any tips? Or anything, that you think would really help with maybe, the new way things are with technology, with the new way feel about, I don't know. I'm looking for ideas, you know? (laughs)
I don't have many ideas for other people, because I feel Metal is stagnating a little bit, almost? Like in the technical sense not, like everybody's getting faster, and everything sounds cleaner. The ideas for me, were sicker in the early 90s for example, you know? I don't know, I worry about myself more. You can't teach anybody to write something outstanding, you know? People that have the outstanding ideas, I don't think they need any teaching, any advice, they'll find it. You can teach someone to have, "Oh, okay. You used this kind of equipment, and you practice your rudiments." But, the real deal for me, is people that invent new things, in new ways. Innovate, you know? So, I really--those guys will pop up, and will have nothing do to with me. (laughs)
Do you have any certain "rules", in terms of when you make the music together, and when you come up with ideas? Is there a certain rule, or something you really keep in mind, when you make your music? When you come up with ideas, either it has to at least stay brutal in a certain way, it has to be?
It's gotta be Brutal Death Metal, always. If I want to do something else, then I'm gonna call it something else, from now on. Dharmata was an exception, and writing more like that, but we're going to call it Dharmata.
Ohh! Okay!
Defeated, for me, the next album is going to be a lot more straight, and I want to be in your face, brutal.
And my last question, we talked a little earlier, about your work with Ingurgitating Oblivion, with the previous record, Vision Wallows in Symphonies of Light. I believe Florian's (Engelke) vision of that kind of Metal, and Death Metal, that's the same thing I said of like the Anatas, the Augurys, the differentness.
Vision Wallows in Symphonies of Light, one of the highest recommendations I can give (Willowtip Records)
Oh yeah!
I'm blown away, not only by your own performance in that, but for his work all these years. Now, he's doing lead vocals now, and everything. Talk to me about your experience in the band, and what does he do, that makes that, that? I'm still trying to describe, and trying to learn more about it.
Yeah. I don't know, he's been interested in outstanding ideas since--he's been basically doing this weird stuff, since very early. If you know Of Trees and Orchids, that was, yeah, you should check them out. Because, it's already kind of the outline, of the styles already defined, there with that. I think, he's just been doing better, and better, that's the thing.
How did you get involved? How did you--did he contact you, were you interested? How did that come to be?
It came to be, through our old vocalist, "Konni" (Konstantin Luhring), he knew him pretty well, and he actually had a project with him. They were from the same area, in Germany. And, yeah, we started knowing each other, and he asked me, "Hey, can you play this album? Just session job?" I'm not a full member of the band just, always doing just session.
So, if they ever toured, you won't be a part of that?
Uhhh, no, not tours. I think about, getting those sounds back into my head, that's uh, a little bit scary.
(laughs) Did you write at all the material? Or did you--
The drums? Everything, yeah. I don't write that, I'll just play to it, and something comes out. I don't write anything, when I'm doing. And he doesn't either, he wants me to freely play. Organic.
Okay, great! Any last words? Anything you'd like to say for the first day of the tour, first great night? A lot more to come up, and Anaheim tomorrow, my home place. Anything you like to say for anyone coming out, the rest of the tour, and the rest of the year?
If this (the pandemic) gets released soon, then please, all come out to the shows, you know? And be as supportive, supportive as these San Diego ones. Because, that was insane. I've never seen a line like this for merch. (Talking to Josh) Have you ever seen that before? Have we had that before?
Josh Welshman: Umm, in bigger cities, Chicago you know? Like, Boston.
Well because, usually I'm never at the merch after, but yeah, today is like, yeah. So, keep supporting like that, and we'll be fucking rich!
(laughs)
Josh Welshman: Make us rich!
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